Barry LaBov, founder of LABOV Marketing Communications and Training, joins Tom Ruggie to explain why what makes a business worth choosing is usually already inside it, and how to tell if a competitor could sign your pitch.
Could a competitor sign your company's pitch? If so, Barry LaBov says you haven't found your difference yet, and it is probably already inside the building.
Barry is the founder and CEO of LABOV Marketing Communications and Training, the firm he started in 1981 after a songwriting career and a boss who told him he would starve without him. For 45 years he has helped companies including Harley-Davidson, Audi and The Macallan find what makes them worth choosing.
Tom Ruggie and Barry get into why being different is not the same as being better, why a company's real difference often has no name, and what happens when a business cuts the thing customers loved to compete on price. Tom also puts his own industry on the table: most advisors describe themselves in nearly the same words.
It ends with the most practical question in the episode: what should you never change?
► LINKS & RESOURCES
Barry LaBov: https://barrylabov.com
LABOV Marketing Communications and Training: https://labov.com
Difference Talks podcast: https://differencetalks.com
The Power of Differentiation: https://www.amazon.com/Power-Differentiation-Barry-LaBov-ebook/dp/B0D4MNVLKR/
Barry LaBov on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/barry-labov-6965241/
Destiny Family Office: https://destinyfamilyoffice.com
Tom Ruggie on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tomruggie/
► ABOUT THE SIGNIFICANCE OF WEALTH PODCAST Hosted by Tom Ruggie, Significance of Wealth explores the evolving landscape of wealth management, private investments, and collecting as both a passion and an investment strategy. New episodes on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Pandora and YouTube.
Martie Salt: Welcome to the Significance of Wealth podcast, where we explore the evolving landscape of wealth management, private investments, and collectibles as both a passion and investment strategy. I'm Marty Salt. Most business owners can tell you their company is different. Far fewer can say what the difference is in one sentence, and fewer still have thought about which part of it would still be there after they sell.
Barry Labov has spent forty-five years helping companies answer that. He's the founder and CEO of Labov Marketing Communications and Training, the firm he started in nineteen eighty-one, and his work has shaped brands including Harley Davidson, Mercedes-Benz, Audi, and the Macallan. He is a two-time Ernst & Young Entrepreneur of the Year recipient and an inductee into the Entrepreneur of the Year Hall of Fame.
He's also the author of The Power of Differentiation: Win Hearts, Minds, and Market Share, and the host of the Difference Talks podcast. Today, Barry joins Tom to talk about what he calls the commodity trap, what he has watched happen when a company quietly cuts the one thing its customers valued most, and why the instinct that makes a brand worth keeping is close to the one that makes an object worth collecting.
Now here's your host, Tom Ruggie.
Tom Ruggie: Welcome to another episode of Significance of Wealth. I am here with Barry Labov. Barry is the founder and CEO of Labov Marketing Communications and Training. He spent 45 years teaching companies what makes them different and also what makes them valuable. Barry, first of all, thanks for being here.
I want to start off with a little bit of, of your life and some background of, of yourself, and we'll go from there.
Barry LaBov: Well, great. I won't belabor that. Yes, it's great to be with you, Tom. Um, I started out as a musician many, many years ago, and, uh, had some songs on the radio, wrote some songs that sold well under one million copies, as I like to share.
Under. Under. Yeah. And, uh, had a song on MTV, things like that. But it really altered the way I run a company, which is I run my company like it's a rock band, where everybody has a chance to do things, try out ideas. Everybody has a chance to perform and do a great job. So that's how I started out. Now, today our company works, uh, nationwide, uh, to an extent, worldwide, and we have clients that include very small companies, but also Harley Davidson, uh, Macallan Scotch, and Audi as an example.
Tom Ruggie: Nice. Now, y- you, uh, you tweaked my interest here. You say you, you run companies like a rock band. Can you give me an analogy or a sample of what that looks like?
Barry LaBov: Yeah. In a rock band, you don't know which member of the band may come up with a great song. And if you really have a great, great rock band, it's very possible that one of y- of the guys who is not the superstar will come up with something great.
So, um, a lot of people watch the, the biopic movie of the band Queen. Mm-hmm. Well, Queen had four guys in the band, and literally three of them were superstars in the way they wrote, but the guy who wrote one or two of their ver- very biggest songs was their bass player, who only wrote a handful.
Tom Ruggie: Hmm.
Barry LaBov: And in a business like mine, I'm always looking for a great idea.
Right. And it can come from anybody. So that's how it works.
Tom Ruggie: Oh, very cool. That's a fascinating start to your life, uh, you know, working as a, as a musician and doing records and selling under a, a, a million copies. I love that. Um- Tell us a, a little bit about, I, I know that your father died at an early age, and I know that that had an impact on your trajectory for your business.
Um, tell me a little bit about that.
Barry LaBov: Yeah. Uh, my father and I were very close. Uh, he brought me up and by telling me I could do anything I put my mind to, so I can achieve anything like that, okay? And I didn't even know what put your mind to meant when I was three years old. But, uh, he brought me up like that.
Um, he became, uh, you know, like my biggest fan and always was very supportive of me. Uh, he became very ill and I had, uh, s- I was very close with him. He was young. Um, he was 63 when he passed away.
Tom Ruggie: That is
Barry LaBov: young. Uh, and, um What happened for me was at the time he was passing, I was around 28 years old. I was working in my rock band, and I had a business.
I was selling jingles, those irritating little ditties that you hear on the radio. And I kinda had my feet on both sides of the, of the, of the camp, so to speak. My father passed away, and I remember walking down the, uh, street by myself shortly after it, late at night, and thinking, you know, "What am I gonna do?
And how much longer do I have? Because for all I know, it's gonna be over any second." And at that point, I gave myself permission to focus on my company. Uh, I had worked on the band for a long time. I felt the company was a more fair, and that sounds a little weird, but it was a fair existence, meaning you could work really hard and try hard and do such good work, and you'll probably do okay.
Whereas in a band, there's a lotta luck to it.
Tom Ruggie: Right.
Barry LaBov: I gave myself permission to focus on my company for six months, and if I wanted to give up after that, I told myself, "You can give up and go right back to the rock band," and I never turned back. So that's how I started my company.
Tom Ruggie: And that, just to, to be clear, all of that came during the, the long walk that you took.
Barry LaBov: Mm-hmm.
Tom Ruggie: And that, that's, that was kind of the, the deciding point.
Barry LaBov: That was the deciding point, and, you know, you're in the wealth management world. I- my goal wasn't, "I'm gonna be rich and famous." My goal wasn't, "I'm gonna be the richest guy of all my buddies." I just, at that point in music, I wanted to have a band that was doing really cool music, or I wanted to have a company that was at least making enough money to survive.
And so my, my goals were very, very humble at the time. Mm-hmm. They were super humble.
Tom Ruggie: Any, any, uh, specific that you wanna shout out as far as what your goals were at that point?
Barry LaBov: Um, well, I'll tell you. Here's, here's a very quick story. This is what happened. I had been working prior to all of that, uh, before I started my jingle business, I had...
This is how humble my goals were. I, prior to that, my father was still alive. I was working at a recording studio writing those irritating little ditties. So I had no business on my own. I still had my rock band. And I- Was going without a salary because the recording studio was in financial turmoil. But the agreement I made was, "You don't have to pay me for the next few weeks, but you've gotta pay the musicians if we sell this jingle."
So long story short, the musicians called me up a few weeks later and said, "We're not getting paid." And I said, "Well, I know we've sold some of these jingles." So one morning I woke up, told my wife, we were newlyweds at the time living in a tiny little apartment. I said, "Hey, I'm gonna have to confront the boss on this."
And she said, "Well, what will happen?" And I said, "He'll probably lie about it, so don't worry about it." I walked out the front door of our tiny, itty bitty little apartment, and our landlord was there, and I said hi to him. He didn't even look me in the eyes. And I thought, "Well, he loves us. We pay on time.
We're like his favorite, you know, tenant." But I didn't pay attention. I went into work. I talked to the boss and I said, "Is it true you're not paying the musicians?" I said, "I notice you just bought yourself a brand-new Porsche, by the way." And he goes, "Well, it's on lease, but yeah, it is a brand-new Porsche. And no, I'm not paying the musicians."
And I said, "But you promised you would." And he said, "I know I did, but I'm not." I said, "Okay, I quit." And he said, "Well, you cannot quit." I said, "Why?" He said, "'Cause you'll amount to nothing without me. You'll starve to death." So I said, "Well, I'll starve to death, but I won't work for somebody who's ripping off musicians."
Tom Ruggie: Right.
Barry LaBov: So I said, "Just give me that microphone." And it's actually the microphone I'm speaking to you with today. Nice. This really beautiful Neumann microphone from 1970. I went home. My wife was crying in the kitchen. I thought she had heard. I said, "What's going on?" And she said, "Oh, the landlord came in. He's getting a divorce.
We will have no home in two weeks 'cause his ex-wife's getting the house that we're in." I said, "Oh." And she said, "How'd your day go?" I said, "Well, I lost the job. I'm done. I have no job." So she said, "In two weeks we have no home and no job." At that point I said, "You know, if I can make $2,000 a month, we can survive."
And that's how I started my jingle business. 2,000 a month was my goal. So pretty small.
Tom Ruggie: Yeah. Well, that's, that's a, that's a great story, you know. I, um, have some similar stories myself and, and like you, I, I built my firm from the, you know, from the very bottom of the ground a- all the way up and, and, uh, you know, I'm in my 35th year.
I know you're in your 45th year. Yep. You started your firm- I
Barry LaBov: am ...
Tom Ruggie: uh, Above in, in 1981. So-
Barry LaBov: Yep ...
Tom Ruggie: just out of curiosity, Barry, I mean, does... A- and I'm asking this because the answer for me is no. Um, but does your business feel like a job at this point?
Barry LaBov: Uh, you know, there are parts of what I do that feel like a job that I gotta, I've got to go do
Martie Salt: Mm-hmm
Barry LaBov: Uh, so there are elements.
It's not like, hey, every day I get to choose what I want, and I'm skipping through the dandelions and everything's- ... wonderful. Um, there are portions of what I do that I absolutely love and I get lost in, and for me that's being creative or working with somebody on something and, you know, coming up with something that's never been in existence before.
I love that. So for me, I'd say there's a portion that feels like, "Okay, I gotta get this done. I gotta do this." The things that I love about the job are just almost, uh, incredibly great.
Tom Ruggie: So what's the biggest thing that you've learned over the last 45 years? Or, or maybe, say, in year five of your business, did you have a thought process of, of how the business should be built and in hindsight you were clearly wrong about directionally where you were going?
Barry LaBov: Yeah. Um, now this may sound a little strange, but I think I... Once I got the business going, I really tried to grow it 'cause I felt very insecure that we could kinda lay back and everything's gonna fall in our laps. I just didn't feel that way. In fact, we started the business back in the early 1980s, and in Indiana, where we are located, uh, it was a terrible recession that we were going through.
So I mean, it was, it was borderline depression in our town of Fort Wayne, Indiana. Lost our largest, uh, manufacturing company here. It was horrible. People unemployed. It was sad. So I became very, very focused on growth, and if anything, I took my eye off doing each one of the projects we were doing, and I brought people in to work with me on it, but I don't think they had the, um, determination and the standards that I had, so there were times they would just lower the standards and we could lose a client, things like that.
So I would look back and say, "You know what? I could have grown a little slower, but kept my eyes and hands involved more than I did back then." And I've changed that over the years, but, uh, I tried to grow rather than just do it the right way each individual time
Tom Ruggie: I would imagine along that same line that it probably changed your hiring process a little bit also, because I know exactly how you feel.
And, you know, it's when you're the founder of a business and it's your, you know, your blood, sweat, and tears, and 24/7 seemingly- Right ... you know, it, it is hard to bring others on and replicate that work structure and that dedication. But, um, I mean, I, I can tell you from our standpoint, that's kind of what we look for in hiring now is, is that diamond in the rough.
And-
Barry LaBov: Right ...
Tom Ruggie: when you're not trying to grow too fast, meaning, you know, you're not in a rush to fulfill various, various parts of the business, you can hire slower and smarter. I would guess that's what you've seen as well.
Barry LaBov: Yeah, we grew so fast in certain periods of time, and we made some very, very desperate hires.
Uh- Yeah ... you know, and it's not the fault of the people. Right. It's just we'd hire the wrong people, but we needed somebody. And, you know, it was rough. Plus it's difficult for me to say, "Hey, somebody's, uh..." or, you know, "Five people aren't doing their job, let's go lay people off." I mean, I'm not that guy. I'm not the guy, "Oh, you know, I'll just go fire people."
I, I just look at it very personally regarding each person. So yeah, we, uh, in our rush to answer the amount of business that we were being presented with, we did hire too quickly and somewhat recklessly. Same time, I ended up, and I didn't know which were which, but we did hire some diamonds who were people that never would've gotten into what we're doing, and they turned out to be fantastic, and many are still with me today.
But- Yeah ... uh, I didn't know that at the time with them either.
Tom Ruggie: Right. Yeah. That's sometimes you, you don't know till you know.
Barry LaBov: Right.
Tom Ruggie: Yeah. So b- back to the, uh, the music analogies, you, um, you still run something with your clients called a jam session. What is, what is that?
Barry LaBov: Yeah, we created a process, it's proprietary.
It's literally 10 steps And it is a three to six-hour experience that we do sometimes virtually, sometimes in, in person. Uh, for instance, we're holding jam sessions worldwide virtually with Macallan Scotch and people representing them all over the globe.
Martie Salt: Hmm.
Barry LaBov: And what we do is it's not just, "Hey, here's a bunch of ideas."
We actually walk people through this process where they manufacture a bunch of ideas, but before we're done, before we walk out, those ideas, im- 90% of those are then discarded 'cause they don't make the cut, and those very few that are good, we then go deep dive within that three to six-hour period and come up with fleshed out recommendations that you could literally start on the next day.
And they have given birth to numerous pilot programs for companies all over the nation. Uh, and it's a lot of fun. And for the business world, so many of the clients that we work with are, you know, great businesspeople, but they're not in a jam session environment. So it is shocking for them to realize that, hey, we're gonna come up with ideas and some of these are gonna be no good.
And hey, by the way, we have no idea what's gonna end up being created today. You know, they want, they want things to be proved. They want things to be figured out, and I'm going, "You can't figure it out." And they go, "What if it's a bad session?" We go, "Well, if it's a bad session, it's a bad session. Nobody gets hurt.
We move on." They go, "Yeah, but how do we know these are gonna be good ideas?" We don't know.
Tom Ruggie: Yeah.
Barry LaBov: And it opens it up for some very, very free thinking and ultimately phenomenal ideas, 'cause sometimes it's the first time these individuals have had a chance to exhale and think of some interesting ideas that could help their business solve problems.
Tom Ruggie: How has your business changed with the oncoming role of AI? I mean, you know, a- again, to give a parallel, I think there's potential in my business that a lot of advisors are at risk, and I, I believe- Oh, yeah ... that they're at risk because they don't differentiate- Exactly ... what they do very well. And Candidly, I also think a lot of advisors are what I call dumb, fat, and happy.
But to me, I look at AI as something that I can use as a springboard to create an even better experience for my clients. But I don't think that a lot of people in my business, and I'm curious what you think, the insights of your business, you know, how they feel about that very same thing.
Barry LaBov: AI is used and can be used really well, uh, and I use it on a daily basis.
Our company uses it. I think it's misused when people are lazy, and they go, "Hey, let's go drop some ideas into AI in the Claude or Chat or Perplexity and just see what it spits out." And they go, "Okay, here you go," and that's it. Um, so from a creative standpoint, the thing we have to look at at our company is it's great for generating ideas, it's great for insights, it's great for research, but once it spits out what it has and you go back and you push it and go back and forth with it, it's got to be genuine.
It's got to be so if it's your company's, um, social media post, it's got to sound like you. It cannot sound like ChatGPT, uh, trying to, um, say something that, uh, that's awkward. Okay, so that's one thing. I think another thing with, um, AI and any technology is that it really gets down to if you're an order taker, if all you're doing is going, "Yeah, what else do you want?"
to the client, you're gonna be in danger. You're really gonna be in danger.
Tom Ruggie: Agree.
Barry LaBov: This is where our company, which is very much involved with consulting with our clients, we consult, we understand business. We will, uh, challenge some of the things that they're doing in a respectful way, but we'll say, "We don't think you should do it this way."
That's where a chat is not gonna help you, a ChatGPT or an AI, because they're, they're going to spit things back at you. So I believe if you're an order-taking company, like you said, kind of fat, dumb, and happy, it's gonna really Bite into your business because you're not offering anything of value. The client's got to think that, "Wait a minute, these people actually know what they're talking about."
One interesting, uh, trend we're seeing at our company is that as AI is ramping up, there is a dramatic need for our clients who have dealers or distributors or sales locations, retail locations, to get those individuals to really buy into their product, to get those individuals to feel like, uh, they care about the product, you know, things like that.
It's so important. So we're seeing a very, very big push about, we call it commercial engagement or commercial loyalty right now. So that's what I'm seeing with technology. Technology can take care of a lot of great things, but it's not going to, at least at the moment, replace that integrity and that passion the individual has.
Tom Ruggie: Yeah. Completely agree. One of the words that I brought up was differentiation. And, uh- Mm-hmm ... in, in doing some research about you, you draw a, uh, a pretty sharp line between differentiation and superiority. Um, tell me... G- Give me a little insight into that. I mean, uh, I think a lot of people would hear those words and, and kind of, uh, have them construed as, as similar words, but you dissect that a little bit differently.
Barry LaBov: Yeah. I think I'll give you a couple of strange, uh, comparisons. So one is Harley Davidson. Tremendous brand, but they're brilliant people in Milwaukee. And if you said to them, "Do you have a superior motorcycle that's better in every single way?" They would say, "Of course not. It's not possible." But they do have a phenomenal ownership experience, and they do have gorgeous design.
They can offer things that nobody else can in those areas. Now, are they the cheapest to service? Will they get the most miles per gallon? Probably not.
Tom Ruggie: Right.
Barry LaBov: They're not superior in every way. And the other thing that's a strange comparison is if you think about, uh, your spouse or significant other, is that person superior in every way?
Is he or she taller, have more hair, have more that? What, what do... Do they have more, and are they better in every single way? Of course not. But they're that unique, special person to you, and same thing you could say about your children, too. It's that. It's not that they're gonna be superior and better in every fashion.
And so often we'll, we'll go into a plant or a facility, and we'll talk to one of the engineers or one of the designers, and they'll go, "Yeah, but, you know, we're not that different than anybody else." And we'll go, "Okay. But hold on. I understand that, but does anybody do this, this, and that?" And they go, "Well, no, but it doesn't mean we're perfect," and we're not talking perfection.
Does anybody do these things? And it's very important because we will, as human beings, we will be drawn to certain types of products or brands, and there are reasons. There are reasons. And, you know, it's one of the problems Harley had when it was looking at the electric motorcycle because it had no sound, and you're used to that Harley thunder, right?
Right. Okay. And that was one of the pushbacks. So you gotta understand, doesn't make it superior, but it does make it unique or distinctive, some of these different things. So you've got to look at it. There's a flavor. There's a style. There's a reason somebody chooses you, and it's... As I said, doesn't mean you're superior in every way
Tom Ruggie: So how, how is finding that differentiation, how do you work with your clients, be it Harley-Davidson or who- whoever it may be, but to, to really discover what that differentiation is?
Barry LaBov: Well, you said the right word, Tom, it's discover. So we never try to create it. It's already there, and we will go into their facilities, we'll talk to the people who design it, who, uh, have created the product, who sell the product, and we'll listen to them. But we'll also get knee-deep into the technology, the service, or the product that is being produced, and we get in there to find what makes it tick, what makes it unique.
A lot of times there's something really brilliant, it's been ignored, and it doesn't even have a name. It has no name. And we go, "Well, you got to name it." You know, nobody has child one, two, and three at the house. They have three different kids with three different names, and there's a reason they named each one of these kids the name the kid got.
And that's how you have to look at what you have that's unique and differentiated. It's got to have a name. It's got to have a story. There's a reason behind it, and that's what we do.
Tom Ruggie: Very cool Let me ask a question about, about my industry. Um, you know, before we, we started the podcast, we were talking about a, a little bit of a search that, that you had, uh, in the wealth management space.
And as you're aware, there's tens of thousands of financial advisors, wealth managers, you know, a- across the country. You know, one thing that I find, and sometimes I'll have a prospective client ask the question, you know, "What makes you different?" Mm-hmm. And my response to that is, "Well, the problem with that, that answer, if, if I were to tell you what I truly feel makes me different, it's probably what three out of five other advisors would say as well."
Mm-hmm. But the difference is the execution of it. And, and so, you know, my question to you is, is y- again, using my profession as an example, you have a hoard of advisors out there- Right ... that are effectively many of them saying they do the exact same thing, but the reality is when you peel the onion back, that's not the case.
How do you structure creating that, that difference in an environment where there's a lot of similarity?
Barry LaBov: Well, I just went through that. Um, I fired an advisor because he was not honest, uh, and then interviewed three advisors. And, uh, what you said is very accurate, Tom. Uh, all of them could sell the same ETFs and the same equities and everything else.
Uh, they... Nobody had a source that was unique in that way. But what you look at in your industry is this: if somebody says, "Well, what makes me unique is me", well, okay, that doesn't work. But do you have a different process? You mentioned execution. Is there a certain level of execution that you have that others do not have?
And is there a name for it? And is there a, uh, documented procedure or process that goes on every time? Um, here's an example. Different industry, but we all have heard of certified pre-owned cars, right? And it has 110 points of inspection, right? Okay. Well, that used to be called a used car. Now it's CPO, certified pre-owned, 110, uh, point inspection.
Okay. But the point is, if we go back to your industry, if it's at execution, okay, exactly what about that execution? What makes it different? Do we have different levels of people that are doing the executing? Do we have, uh, uh, like I said, certain process? Are we using certain technology? What are we doing?
Are there certain safeguards? I, I don't know. Is there, and this is important in your industry, 'cause it's a service industry like mine, is there an experience that is being offered that is unique? I mentioned Harley Davidson. One part of their experience which you do not get with Suzuki Is that ownership group, HOG, Harley Ownership Group.
Okay? Nobody else has HOG. Now, they may have a club, but HOG represents great things to, to people if they get into the Harley family, okay? The... It's, it's unbelievable. It's very, very unique and powerful. Okay, that's part of the Harley Davidson experience. So many companies, especially service companies, offer that experience.
Now, I'll go very far away from your industry. If you look at Amazon, there's no human being you're dealing with, but their experience is very, very positive for most of us, which is, "Gee, I can order this and get it in a day. Gee, if I don't like it, I can send it back and get my money back, and nobody gives me any grief or any hassles."
Okay, well, that's part of that experience.
Tom Ruggie: Right.
Barry LaBov: So we have to look at these things, even if we're in the service industry. A, a lot of people go, "Well, we're service. You know, uh, we, we don't have differentiators." No, you have to have a differentiator. Um, you know, that's what, that's what's so important. We're going...
You know, my company's differentiation is, is literally differentiation. We focus on it, and a lot of companies cannot even pronounce the word, let alone they don't really know what it is. And all of their marketing and all of their, um, uh, promotions and advertising are just clever little sayings that say nothing.
They're just cute, but they don't mean anything, and as you said, Tom, everybody else can say them. So I always go back, what... You know, if you say, "This is what we do, and this is how we do it," and then you could put your competitor's name above that and it still works, then you haven't found your differentiation
Tom Ruggie: Well, you remind me of, of a book, and I can't think of the authory- author.
You might know it. But I mean, this is going back 20 or 25 years, but it was called The Experience Economy, and that book literally changed directionally how I went at, at a young age in my business.
Barry LaBov: You're talking
Tom Ruggie: about a good- And I can tell, I can tell by your, uh, reaction- You're- ... you're familiar with the book.
Barry LaBov: You're talking about a good friend of mine who has been on my podcast, Joe Pine. Uh-huh. The period Joe Pine. He just wrote a book called The Transformation Economy. So exactly, it's The Experience Economy, and that's what this is about. It is the experience. What's it like to work with Tom? And if all of a sudden it's, well, you know, you meet Tom and then you never see him again, it's one thing.
Uh, if it's, "Hey, you meet Tom, and man, they go through things, they follow up, they do such and..." So I mean, they're amazing. You know, and they're honest. Wow, that's amazing. Then that's a different story. But yeah, that's Joe Pine. Great book.
Tom Ruggie: Yeah,
Barry LaBov: it is. I'll let him know that you brought this up in-
Tom Ruggie: Yeah, please do
Barry LaBov: in with the
Tom Ruggie: podcast discussion. Please. I mean, it was, it was a... It, it was at a young stage in my business. It was- Yeah ... it was a differentiator for-
Barry LaBov: Yeah ...
Tom Ruggie: you know, how I viewed things directionally. So don't- Yeah ... don't only, don't only let him know that, uh, that it got brought up. Let him know that I am forever grateful for the great book that he, he put out there.
Barry LaBov: I will tell him.
Tom Ruggie: Uh, a- a- another s- side question, because I'm, I'm not a motorcycle guy, but, uh, you, you brought this up. Just out of curiosity, what did Harley Davidson do regarding the, uh, electrical bike?
Barry LaBov: Well, they decided that it should be an independent company and that they would not be, uh, directly connected to it.
So it's an independent entity out there, and that way they were able to focus on who they are and what they are.
Tom Ruggie: Yeah. That, that, that, that makes sense because again, in my mind, not knowing the answer, um, I feel like that would take them off course for-
Barry LaBov: Yes ...
Tom Ruggie: you know, the, the, the, the fantastic brand that they built for however many years they built it for.
Barry LaBov: Right, and you're exactly right. That's what they did.
Tom Ruggie: Yeah. You warn a lot in your information about the commodity trap. Mm-hmm. I think we've talked about it a little bit. I mean, o- obviously, a commodity is the exact opposite of differentiation. But what does that mean to you?
Barry LaBov: Well, nobody ever tattooed a commodity on their body parts.
You know what I'm saying? So they-- You might have put Navy or Marines or Harley Davidson on your arms, but never some sort of piece of copper or something, you know? Um, commodities today and, uh, technology is trying to turn more products into technologies or into commodities. And what's interesting is commodities are very, very, uh, enticing to people because they think, "You know, if we can sell more and, uh, lower our price, we'll, we'll do great.
So we'll kind of de-content," meaning take things out of what we have, uh, dumb down some of the services or products we have, and then we'll sell a lot more. And the problem with Looking at the commodity monster, as we call it, and giving into it, is that you start to look like, taste like, smell like, act like, and price like everybody else.
And then what happens is there's no reason for someone to choose you, and it gets very dangerous. We work with, uh, private equity companies. They will buy a firm, a manufacturing company, service company. And right off the bat, what they'll look at is, how do they make it a far better run company operationally?
And that's great. The one thing we always kind of butt heads with them, uh, in a lovingly fashion, is that we don't want them to reduce the quality or differentiation of the product or service that's being offered. So you have to look at that because it's very tempting s- to strip things down in the thought that you're gonna make up for it by selling a lot more.
So that's the danger of commoditization.
Tom Ruggie: Yeah. It's, it's funny you say that with the private equity firms because without you saying what you said, my immediate reaction is that's, that's one of the first places they go when they acquire a business is, you know, what are the... what's the methodology of, of cutting expenses?
Right. And part of that methodology can be commoditizing some of the services, but that, to your point, that completely takes away what made the business successful in the first place.
Barry LaBov: We, we work with an ambulance, uh, manufacturer, and they had acquired many other brands of ambulances. And we walked into their flagship leading ambulance for about 10 minutes until we learned from the person who was giving us a tour that it was not their flagship leading ambulance.
Actually, it was their entry-level ambulance. And the person giving us the tour was the VP, and he said, "You know, they all look alike anymore." And we said, "Okay, we appreciate your candor, but aren't your clients, your customers gonna say the same thing? And then what about your dealers who actually have been selling one or the other of these products?
Now that they're really not different, why would they entertain one of them being more expensive than the other?" And basically, you can create a lot of trouble when you try to commoditize unless you really make sure, uh, that you're not losing anything that is distinct or unique
Tom Ruggie: Like, again, that's the whole point of it.
I mean-
Barry LaBov: Right ...
Tom Ruggie: I'm not a, I'm not a motorcycle guy, but I would presume that Harley-Davidsons are more expensive than the Suzuki that you, that you mentioned. Right. They are. But you're buying the experience that, with your help I'm sure, has been crafted by Harley-Davidson that, that people are looking for.
And, uh, I would assume that the hog that you mentioned, I would assume that includes having, you know, gatherings and get-togethers and, and again, creating experiences above and beyond just owning a bike.
Barry LaBov: Well, I'll share one thing for all of us in the audience that sell services, okay? Because this is a great example of Harley-Davidson.
When they were going through one of their toughest times a few decades ago They did something that differentiated themselves with both their dealer network and their customers, and that is their leaders of the company, all the way up to the top, Tom, traveled out routinely to the dealerships and attended those hog events and everything else.
Now, the rival motorcycle company leaders did not do that. They were not hanging out at the Suzuki or the BMW dealerships. They were not They were cutting
Tom Ruggie: expenses.
Barry LaBov: Right. Yeah. They were watching those expenses, expenses, and Harley's leaders went out on motorcycles, because they're riders, and they were there with their customers and dealers.
That is a differentiator. Yeah. That's a great example, and you would go, "Well, but it has nothing to do with the product." That differentiator has nothing to do with the product, but boy, it means a lot to the people involved, and they learn about that product from those people, which then ultimately alters future products.
Tom Ruggie: Well, ironically, you know, as I've mentioned a couple times, I am not a motorcycle guy. I don't know a whole lot about it, but I know exactly when you're talking about, um, you're talking about the 2008 timeframe.
Barry LaBov: Yep.
Tom Ruggie: And I can tell you that I know for a fact that that happened at the local Harley Davidson dealership here in Leesburg.
Mm-hmm. And all these years, you know, almost 20 years later, not being a motorcycle guy, I'm still aware that that happened because it created such a buzz among people that are Harley Davidson people.
Barry LaBov: Mm-hmm.
Tom Ruggie: Yeah. That's fantastic. You've got your book on your desk there. Tell me a little, little bit about your book.
Barry LaBov: Uh, I wrote this book prior to COVID and then rewrote it during COVID because the book originally was about, hey, let's differentiate your product, your brand, and help you really increase your market share. During COVID, in one year, over 100 million Americans walked off their jobs. And I was reading that as I was on an airplane across the country, and I went, "Uh, I gotta change this book," 'cause it's not just about differentiating so that your customers buy more.
You've gotta differentiate your company, your brand, so that your people stay on the job. So I created the tagline, which is win, W-I-N, win hearts, minds, and market share, and you do it in that order with your people. So that's what I wrote the book about. It's stories of great companies Finding ways to win hearts, minds, and market share.
And then there's examples of some companies that, you know, stubbed their toe, but I don't mention any of their names of course. But there's real-life examples of how they, you know, decided they wanted to commoditize and about killed them. Um, it's a book that's filled with a lot of upbeat, positive information and also some how to do it.
So it describes how to do differentiation within your own four walls if you can't afford to bring somebody in. A fascinating book in my opinion. Uh, it's got great reviews. Uh, I do a lot of keynote speaking, and this is the topic I speak on
Tom Ruggie: Very cool. You may know from my bio, I'm, I'm a big collector. Um- Yes
I, I, I- Yeah ... primarily collect sports memorabilia and, and, you know, things along that, that vertical, if you will. But, uh- Yeah ... um, some people say I'm a wine collector, but I'm actually more of a wine drinker. But, um-
Barry LaBov: I'm a wine collector.
Tom Ruggie: Are you? Yeah.
Barry LaBov: Oh, yeah.
Tom Ruggie: Well, I've, I have a collection and, and the collection does seem to build.
I keep telling myself I just need to drink more. But, uh but, but I'm not building it for a collection. I'm, I'm just acquiring things that I want to at some point drink. But anyway, I got off track there. But but i- in the, in the memorabilia collector's world, you may or may not know, I mean, there's been a huge rise, really since COVID, um, in particular, a huge rise in what's happening within the collectible industry.
In fact, from a, a return on investment standpoint, for those that ... I, I look at it as a passion first and investing second. But, you know, now there's a lot of, uh, you know, entree into the, into the collectibles from investors. Right. And just curious if it, you know, whether it's sports or any other collectibles, if, if you see any trend there from a marketing standpoint.
To me, it's amazing what some of the card companies have done to really spotlight and bring not ... new people into the fold based on a number of things. You know, providing potential scarcity to products, providing access to athletes. I mean, there, there's a lot of different things these card companies are doing to differentiate themselves.
I'm just curious if you've seen that in either the s- the sports world or any other collectibles.
Barry LaBov: Well, I think collectibles are really interesting. My son is a former college athlete, and he's into a lot of sports collectibles. Uh, my daughter collects wine with me, and I do think there's value to that.
You know, you think about some wine is not gonna reach maturity for another 50-plus years. That gives her a lot of time to be able to wait for the right time to sell it. So no, I think, um, unique experiences that nobody else can deliver, you know, whether it's access, and access is a big deal, uh, because we're in a world where, you know, you can get onto, uh, the internet and go see about anything you wanna go find.
But if it's in-person access to something that nobody else can get, it's one of these once in a lifetime experiences. I just went to a birthday party a- uh, in Italy on Lake Como And the individual throwing the party for 200 people, all expenses paid, in- a- also included entertainment like Elton John, Mariah Carey, Earth, Wind & Fire, John Legend, and Kenny G.
So that's access. You have that and you go, "I- I'll never experience this again." So it's the kind of thing where you go, "This is amazing." So yeah, I see that as a very, very interesting opportunity. The one thing I will talk with clients about if they're going to, let's say, use a celebrity and use access, is that, of course, you gotta make sure the celebrity's background is appropriate.
But ideally, there should be a good connection. You know? If- if you're Harley and you have a celebrity who has never ridden a motorcycle, it's like, well, okay. But if it's a, a Harley, uh, event, and the celebrity or the person you get access to is, uh, a rider, it's great. And then one thing I'll share that we have done, and Harley is an example, when they worked with us many, many years ago, they wanted to do a, a very large event for their dealers, and they were gonna send the dealers, I think, to Jamaica or someplace.
And we said, "You know what? Forget Jamaica. How about Mecca?" And they go, "What do you mean Mecca?" We said, "Milwaukee, Wisconsin."
Tom Ruggie: Hmm. "
Barry LaBov: What about having them show up there?" And they go, "Well, you know, Milwaukee's not that big of a deal." And we said, "Yeah, but they'll have the opportunity to meet Willie Davidson and other Davidson family members, and they'll get to meet some of the people who are designing your new products and see your facility there."
And they went, "Do you think people are really gonna care about that?" And I said, "It's a once in a lifetime." Absolutely. So that's another thing to keep in mind. Sometimes you have it, again, that's differentiation. Sometimes you ha- you have that diamond in the rough right in front of you. And that's-
Martie Salt: It's right under your nose.
Barry LaBov: Yeah. And it was like, well, this is the original factory where these things were built. Come on, bring people in. That was... Yeah, but it was access, as you said, Tom. It was access to the people.
Tom Ruggie: Yeah.
Barry LaBov: People they'd never would meet normally.
Tom Ruggie: Right. Right. Well, a- and, and to your point, I mean, that's- ... as, as, uh, again, as a non-Harley person, that's still, even if I was in that, that would create a memorable event.
Barry LaBov: Absolutely. Well, here's the other thing I'll share with the audience. It was not just you get to meet a person, but think about this. They said, "Okay, what would you like to see in our next motorcycle? What would you like? Or what don't you like in a current motorcycle?" And so now, all of a sudden, somebody's listening to me, too.
You know, Willie G. listened to what I said. Wow. You know, that's, that's a big deal.
Tom Ruggie: Yeah.
Martie Salt: That is, that's a very big deal.
Tom Ruggie: So Barry, you've had- Two different types of success. You know, you had, you had some success in your early years with the, the songwriting and the rock and roll and all that good stuff, and obviously you've built a, a fantastic business over the last 45 years.
You know, kind of dissect the, the difference between the two and as, as you look back over the last 50-plus years, what do those two very different businesses ... What's the telling story that you have from your learning experience with those two businesses?
Barry LaBov: You know, they were two very different businesses.
We talked earlier, they have some similarities. I view the, uh, career I had as a rock musician and songwriter as something where it was, uh, an exercise in creativity. It was very limited as to the amount of people that we affected in a good way as far as, you know, we might have four people in a band, and might have two or three people like my wife and a few others who wrote some songs.
What is very different with the business that I've been able to run over all these years is that there have been dozens and dozens and dozens of people whose lives have been positively affected, uh, along with their families, and also a number of clients that we've gotten to know that were very much affected in a very one-on-one fashion.
So I look at them, uh, very different, and I kinda look at what I have done with the business as a more mature thing to do. The, uh, rock band thing was, uh, you know, there was a chance, sure, we were gonna get some success and all that, but it was more of a performance-based situation where you're only as good as your last performance, whereas in our business it's been something that, uh, we have been able to build on year after year after year.
So a longer term commitment to the business, uh, a larger return for more people with the business.
Tom Ruggie: Cool. So wind this down a little bit. Um, you know, our, our show is built on the idea that wealth is not measured just by what you accumulate, but it's also measured on what makes you unforgettable. So after 45 years of you helping to make other peoples' and companies' brands unforgettable, what do you want yours to be?
Barry LaBov: Well, what I've wanted to do for most of my life is I wanted to give people an opportunity that they could not get anywhere else. And in many cases, I say with humility, that's been, that's been true. Um, I... If anything, I see the potential in others even when, uh, they don't see it in themselves. And sometimes I try to convince them, and they go, "Nah, I don't wanna do that."
And I go, "Okay. Okay." I've learned to say okay instead of just fighting and pushing and saying, "No, you can do it." I want to give people an opportunity to do what they probably couldn't do elsewhere. You know, the, the chance of a lifetime, with the understanding that it's through my lens, and what I think would really be great for them may not be for them.
So I, I wanna be that person that saw the potential and the good and allowed people to shine.
Tom Ruggie: That's, that's a, that's a, a worthwhile goal for sure. You've been a guest on over 100 podcasts, and now you have your own. Um, just curious, is, is there a question that, that you wish that somebody would finally ask you that's never been asked?
Barry LaBov: Uh, I, you know, I, I was prepared for that because I saw your question, which is a great one, and I've not been asked that question before. I think, you know, I, I, I hope that the value of what I'm doing helps others, 'cause I don't want it to be about me, 'cause I'm kind of at a point in my life where I, I, I don't want it to be about me.
I- it's not important. So I would say if there was a question, um, it would be, what is it on your very best day that makes you the most fulfilled? Uh, and I would answer that by saying, if I see that somebody has created something or achieved something that they had never done before, so it's a breakthrough, even if it appears to be a minor breakthrough.
If I see that, to me, that, that, like, that's it for me. I love it. Uh, I wanna see... I wanna see things done that have never been done before. I... Here's one example. My son worked with the Indianapolis Indians and our company to create a uniform for them, a Native American heritage uniform, and he was, he was the person behind getting us going on it, and we created that uniform, and a number of times a year, the Indianapolis Indians baseball team wears that uniform, and it's celebrated with Native Americans, and we get to go communicate the heritage that are...
that's... that are those, uh, Native Americans that... who live still in that area. And you know what? That's... I'm so proud of what he did and what our group did because it was something that had not been done. That's a 120-year-old team. They'd never had that uniform, and their leadership at that, at that team was so positive about doing it.
So to me, I look at that, it hasn't been done before. That's what makes my day. So that's the answer to the question.
Tom Ruggie: That's a great answer. Thank you. Um, somebody listening to this podcast, uh, they have their own company.
Barry LaBov: Mm-hmm.
Tom Ruggie: They're genuinely proud of their own company but don't really have the ability to explain quickly or perhaps one sentence what differentiates them.
What's the one thing you'd tell them?
Barry LaBov: I would tell them, "Go to people who know you and ask, 'What is it that you should never change?'" And ask enough of these people, and you're gonna start to hear a chorus of similar things. And you're gonna then begin to be on the road to differentiation, 'cause you're gonna learn that people do not want you to change this one
Martie Salt: or these two things.
Barry LaBov: That's your beginning point. And it's important, because as entrepreneurs, many of us are willing to change anything.
Tom Ruggie: Right.
Barry LaBov: And sometimes we do, and sometimes it's the one thing everybody loved.
Tom Ruggie: Well, that's great advice. Actually, ironically, we've, um, just done that very th- same thing. I interviewed three of my clients to get some feedback.
Did it on, on video, and-
Barry LaBov: Uh-huh ...
Tom Ruggie: it was a great session. But also, what, what ends up coming out of that is, you know, some, some scenarios of, of things that maybe you should change or could change. And- Yeah ... and things that, uh, you know, you ask, you ask what to keep the same, but y- y- you're probably gonna get, uh, additional feedback above and beyond that.
Barry LaBov: Right. A- and you'll always get that, 'cause any entrepreneur wants to know, "Okay, what can we do differently? What'd we do bad?"
Tom Ruggie: Yeah.
Barry LaBov: But it's very seldom that we just stop and say, "Okay, what is it that we should never change?" And that goes to your spouse or to your children. You know, if you said to your children, "What should I never change about me?"
And your children tell you something, I mean, you better listen to that, 'cause that's probably something they love.
Tom Ruggie: Absolutely.
Barry LaBov: Don't change it
Tom Ruggie: Well, Barry, it's been a fantastic pleasure to have you on The Significance of Wealth. Um, please tell our audience how they can find you, how they can find your book, how they can find your podcast, website, whatever you'd like to share.
Barry LaBov: Um, I'll share a few things. Uh, I'm very accessible. That's part of my brand. So, uh, feel free to reach out on LinkedIn to Barry Labov or to my website, which is barrylabov.com, or to my company's website, which is Labov, L-A-B as in boy-O-V as in Victor.com, L-A-B-O-V.com. And, uh, feel free to reach out. There are easy ways that you can, uh, open up a conversation, and I'd be happy to talk with you, and I will help people too.
I mean, if somebody says, "Give me an opinion on this," I'll help them. Yeah.
Tom Ruggie: Yeah. And what about your podcast?
Barry LaBov: Podcast is called Difference Talks. It's the word difference and then talks.com. And please, we have a few thousand, uh, subscribers and listeners out there, uh, in six continents and, uh, we'd love people to listen.
Uh, I think there are some very, very inspiring interviews of people who have done great things and have inspired other people.
Tom Ruggie: Fantastic. And then finally, what about your book? I as- I assume it's on Amazon.
Barry LaBov: It is on Amazon. I would love people to not only go to Amazon and buy it, but to leave a very, very honest, open review Leave a review.
That's, that's the best way for us to learn how we're doing, did we hit the mark or whatever.
Tom Ruggie: Yeah.
Barry LaBov: And if anybody, uh, has an event coming up and you go, "Hey, we might wanna have a, a speaker talking about how we can win hearts, minds, and market share in a very positive way," give me a call on that too.
Tom Ruggie: Awesome. All right. Well, Bear, thank you again.
Barry LaBov: Thank you, Tom.
Martie Salt: That brings us to the end of today's episode. Thank you for tuning in. Be sure to subscribe to Significance of Wealth on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and anywhere else you get your podcasts so you never miss an episode. You can also follow Tom Ruggie and Destiny Family Office on LinkedIn and destinyfamilyoffice.com for more insights on wealth management, private market opportunities, and collectibles.
Until next time.
Martie Salt: The expressed views, thoughts, and opinions belong solely to the host and/or guests and are not investment recommendations or opinions issued by Destiny Family Office or its affiliates. Investment advisory services are offered through Destiny Family Office LLC, an SEC-registered investment advisor.
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